Flash webplayer with Ogg Vorbis support

[rotelaterne]

Hello, Sindre and community,

haven’t found a similar request yet, but maybe it’s already been asked:
Concerning the private use of compressed audio files, I consider MP3 as an obsolete format for many reasons. If I had my Ogg Vorbis audio file collection streamed via the Flash-based webplayer integrated in Subsonic, a transcoding process (to MP3) would start of course.
My question is: Are there any tendencies or plans to support Ogg Vorbis streaming via the — or an — embedded Flash player — like FFMp3 is able to?

Alex.

[jooprzol]

This would be a great feature to have. I just started using subsonic after a short experience with Amazon Cloudplayer, which does not at all support Ogg, flac, etc. I appreciate the transcoding feature to convert ogg files to mp3 format, but there is a noticeable degradation in quality when converting oggs to mp3s for web playback. I do appreciate the direct ogg streaming in the android app, though!
Overall, this is an excellent product, such that I've been advertising it to all of my friends.

[sgnl05]

I agree on this. An alternative to a flash based OGG player (which doesn't exist yet as far as I know) would be implementing an html5 based player (selectable by option within Subsonic). A third alternative could be a html5/flash hybrid such as http://www.schillmania.com/projects/soundmanager2/.

Having a html5 alternative enables us with browser streaming of what ever format is supported by the browser, and there's plenty of browsers that have native OGG support.

[markjhvt]

This would be a great feature to have. I just started using subsonic after a short experience with Amazon Cloudplayer, which does not at all support Ogg, flac, etc. I appreciate the transcoding feature to convert ogg files to mp3 format, but there is a noticeable degradation in quality when converting oggs to mp3s for web playback. I do appreciate the direct ogg streaming in the android app, though!
Overall, this is an excellent product, such that I've been advertising it to all of my friends.

One thing that I ran across... if you have your "max bitrate" for the player set to "unlimited", then it looks like lame defaults to 128k for MP3, which isn't very good quality. If you make sure your max bitrate is set to at the very least 192k (320k would be best, of course) - and make sure the lame command line is setup correctly - then you'll get much better quality sound.
I don't want to start a music-format flame war, but a 320k MP3 will provide excellent sound quality for pretty much everything. A 128k MP3, on the other hand (if that's what SubSonic/lame is defaulting to), will sound like crap much of the time.

-Mark-

[yourlord]

I think the point is, why waste bandwidth on an inferior format if you don't have to?

With Vorbis, or even AAC, you can achieve the same quality at substantially lower bitrates.

I don't use the flash player at all. I stream Vorbis to our Android phones, and on computers I stream it to VLC as an external player.

I would really love the option to stream Vorbis to an in-browser player. Since I use Firefox, which has HTML5 Vorbis support built in, an HTML5 player option would pretty much be optimal to me. It makes the difference between being able to host 2-3 concurrent mp3 streams on my upstream bandwidth, or 4 Vorbis streams. Not to mention that since I host several domains on that link, I'd prefer my personal audio streams to consume as little bandwidth as possible.

[markjhvt]

I think the point is, why waste bandwidth on an inferior format if you don't have to?

With Vorbis, or even AAC, you can achieve the same quality at substantially lower bitrates.

I don't use the flash player at all. I stream Vorbis to our Android phones, and on computers I stream it to VLC as an external player.

I would really love the option to stream Vorbis to an in-browser player. Since I use Firefox, which has HTML5 Vorbis support built in, an HTML5 player option would pretty much be optimal to me. It makes the difference between being able to host 2-3 concurrent mp3 streams on my upstream bandwidth, or 4 Vorbis streams. Not to mention that since I host several domains on that link, I'd prefer my personal audio streams to consume as little bandwidth as possible.

And MY point is that if you have the max bandwidth set at 128k, you'll get horrible sounding transcoded MP3s. A workaround until <insert the format you worship here> is supported to get decent sounding music.

-Mark-

[yourlord]

I completely agree that you can set your subsonic server to encode at a higher bitrate to overcome the failings of mp3. BUT, that inherently means wasting bandwidth needlessly.

With 320Kbps mp3's my upstream bandwidth would handle serving only 1 stream before my channel is nearly at capacity. I can fit 3 Vorbis streams at q2 in that same bandwidth and be hard pressed to tell the difference in quality.

To me, mp3 nears transparency at 160-192Kbps. For Vorbis that threshold is around 96-128Kbps (for me).. Given that, I would never exceed 160Kbps for an mp3 stream.. Again though, that means 2 mp3 streams would consume 320Kbps of my bandwidth, a bandwidth that could carry 3 q2 Vorbis streams with bits to spare. With my upstream cap of 512Kbps, I could carry at best 3 160Kbps mp3 streams, or 5 q2 Vorbis streams. Taken another way, 2 mp3 streams would consume a majority of my upstream bandwidth. Those same 2 streams, as q2 Vorbis, consume less than 200Kbps on average which leaves the lion's share of my bandwidth open to serve other requests since I use my connection for more than just streaming from subsonic.

I'll reiterate that my subsonic server currently does not transcode anything to mp3 (the capability is there, I just don't use it).. It transcodes everything to ogg vorbis and streams that to my android clients and to external players (VLC) on any PC I or my friends/family happen to use it on. An HTML5 vorbis option would eliminate my need to use VLC to play my streams and more tightly integrate the subsonic interface for my users.

Edit:
This is not meant to take shots at you or your point Mark, and I hope you're not taking it as such. You're absolutely right to state that forcing the encoder to transcode ogg to mp3 at a higher default bitrate would make a big difference in the quality of his final stream. I'm just doing what I can to plead my case to the developer that an HTML5 player option has some substantial benefits to many of us.

[markjhvt]

Fair enough - I understand.
Plead away

-Mark-

[Xeranor]

please update the player to the newest version. The Website says it now plays ogg files:
http://www.longtailvideo.com/players/jw-flv-player

[NDscham]

/bump & /signed

[whepper]

*bump!*

It would be great to have this option! Maybe a HTML5 version can be added to Subsonic (optionally). That would be the last step for Subsonic to support Ogg Vorbis in every possible way and an incentive for me to donate again!

For the 3rd party mobile apps it would be great if an Ogg decoder library could be integrated in the apps (I've got WP7 besides Android). But now I'm asking too much.

[lavamind]

For anyone still interested in this, there's now an option for an HTML5 web player : https://github.com/tsquillario/MiniSub

If your browser supports Ogg Vorbis through the HTML5 audio component, MiniSub can playback that file in its *native* format if you disable MP3 transcoding!

[Robandcathy]

This would be a great feature to have. I just started using subsonic after a short experience with Amazon Cloudplayer, which does not at all support Ogg, flac, etc. I appreciate the transcoding feature to convert ogg files to mp3 format, but there is a noticeable degradation in quality when converting oggs to mp3s for web playback. I do appreciate the direct ogg streaming in the android app, though!
Overall, this is an excellent product, such that I've been advertising it to all of my friends.

One thing that I ran across... if you have your "max bitrate" for the player set to "unlimited", then it looks like lame defaults to 128k for MP3, which isn't very good quality. If you make sure your max bitrate is set to at the very least 192k (320k would be best, of course) - and make sure the lame command line is setup correctly - then you'll get much better quality sound.
I don't want to start a music-format flame war, but a 320k MP3 will provide excellent sound quality for pretty much everything. A 128k MP3, on the other hand (if that's what SubSonic/lame is defaulting to), will sound like crap much of the time.

-Mark-

No point in streaming in 320k if most mp3 are much lower quality than that about 128k, point is to save space, unless you rip in only 320k which I think is over kill. you really must have excellent ears to hear the difference between 128 and 320. while there is a difference it is slight at best, which is why most mp3 are at 128k. Kinda like saying Im going to buy a 250$ hdmi cable because it much better quality then a 40$ one. I promiss you will not see the diffrence unless you use scientific equipment.

[GJ51]

This would be a great feature to have. I just started using subsonic after a short experience with Amazon Cloudplayer, which does not at all support Ogg, flac, etc. I appreciate the transcoding feature to convert ogg files to mp3 format, but there is a noticeable degradation in quality when converting oggs to mp3s for web playback. I do appreciate the direct ogg streaming in the android app, though!
Overall, this is an excellent product, such that I've been advertising it to all of my friends.

One thing that I ran across... if you have your "max bitrate" for the player set to "unlimited", then it looks like lame defaults to 128k for MP3, which isn't very good quality. If you make sure your max bitrate is set to at the very least 192k (320k would be best, of course) - and make sure the lame command line is setup correctly - then you'll get much better quality sound.
I don't want to start a music-format flame war, but a 320k MP3 will provide excellent sound quality for pretty much everything. A 128k MP3, on the other hand (if that's what SubSonic/lame is defaulting to), will sound like crap much of the time.

-Mark-

No point in streaming in 320k if most mp3 are much lower quality than that about 128k, point is to save space, unless you rip in only 320k which I think is over kill. you really must have excellent ears to hear the difference between 128 and 320. while there is a difference it is slight at best, which is why most mp3 are at 128k. Kinda like saying Im going to buy a 250$ hdmi cable because it much better quality then a 40$ one. I promiss you will not see the diffrence unless you use scientific equipment.

While I agree with some of what you're suggesting, I must take issue with a few points. With storage as cheap as it is, space is hardly an issue for most SS users as I would think having multi-TB hard drives is pretty common. You can get a 3 TB drive for $120 nowdays. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6822148844

I think the primary issue is really bandwidth for mobile use as 3g signals often drop below 256kbps which can crimp a 320k mp3's style when on the road. The best solution for me is to switch to using ogg transcoding for the Android app which maintains excellent quality for the compression efficiencies it achieves. You can get down around 100kbps and still get quality that's much better than 128k mp3.

On the difference between 128 - 320 quality perception, that's all in the ear of the beholder as anyone who goes to church knows that 90% of the time the person next to you can't sing a 4/4 old fashioned hymn anywhere near in tune. So, yes, most probably can't hear the difference. Unfortunately, I have a son with the gift of perfect pitch that has been playing concert level violin with international touring orchestras, and he isn't out of high school yet. Tell him there's no difference. He is a bit of an exception, granted, but after 13 years of sitting at his weekly lessons, I too suffer from being a bit more perceptive and discriminating when it comes to bitrate quality. I also think there may be something to the genres of music you listen too as well as some music is affected far more by quality than others.

Fortunately one of Subsonic's major strenghts is that it allows each user to customize to their individual tastes and quality needs.