Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Third-party modifications and add-ons, Apps and Clients

Moderator: moderators

Re: Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Postby vigotone » Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:05 am

Bump. Anyone?
vigotone
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:00 pm

Re: Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Postby theorego4 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 2:17 pm

Confirming that iSub is not Hi-Res. Using the HRTmicrostreamer with the iPad3/camera connection kit and all Hi-Res downsampled to 44.1k.

Also using the microstreamer with DSub and Hi-Rez seems to play correctly. However, all 44.1k files are upsampled to 96k so hard to tell for sure.

Neutron player does the same thing, upsamples to 96k. Also, iSub on my iPad has difficulty playing Hi-Rez files with lots of stuttering issues. DSub & Neutron are flawless.

Only issue with DSub is Gapless playback is not perfect like iSub & Neutron. Neutron is a PITA to setup & navigate so not recommending it. It works great for local stored files but difficult to setup on the network.

Looks like iSub needs some attention but doubtful that will ever happen since active development has been abandoned. What a shame!!

btw - Highly recommend the microstreamer! It sounds great!!
theorego4
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:55 pm

Re: Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Postby manwithaplan » Sat Oct 17, 2015 11:39 pm

theorego4 wrote:Confirming that iSub is not Hi-Res.


Statements like this are really frustrating, because they lead so many people astray on the facts. This is NOT the case whatsoever. Don't be so lazy with your words, please...permit me to explain:

The limitation of not *outputting* high-rez bit depths and sampling frequencies is either an iOS limitation overall, or a limitation in lib-bass, which is the audio input/output library that both iSub and Vox and many other iOS apps use. The developer of iSub has confirmed several times that he doesn't do any down-rezzing whatsoever, and actually he and I and others did much testing to ensure that FLAC and other filetypes could be streamed natively, without transcoding server-side in other words. This included much testing of high-rez FLAC files such as 24bit/96kHz and 24bit/192kHz files...as long as you have a decent network connection, iSub streams high rez files beautifully and then the Digital to Analog converter in the iOS device converts the digital input of that high rez file to analog output to your headphones, stereo mini to RCA cable to receiver, whatever...of course there is a higher network dependency on the higher rez the native files you're trying to stream...ie, if you are barely hanging on to 1 or 2 bars, and you try and stream a 24bit/192kHz FLAC file that is not cached on your device, you are going to be waiting for the track to start a while, and even then it will likely pause as it pulls down more of it...there is pre-fetching and all kinds of ways that iSub mitigates this issue, but it can not overcome a crap network connection, nor can any other app. Now, as far as *outputting* high rez digital via the iOS device's output, it appears that is indeed not taking place at anything higher than 16bit/44kHz. That is suboptimal, but in no way negates the irrefutable advantage of streaming native FLAC (including high-rez) for listening on an iPhone/iPad, etc in the first place. If you are simply listening through good quality headphones or through analog out via the headphone jack to RCA (i.e., leveraging the device's own DAC), then the sound is just about the best you're ever going to hear from a handheld device. If you want to go digital out to a better DAC, which is completely understandable, then it appears the file gets down-rezzed to 16bit/44kHz...this may suck, but it sucks WAY less than streaming lossy files like mp3's etc. So, your emphasis on iSub being the problem is misguided...again, Vox has the same problem, I am not convinced that anything on iOS can output digitally at 24bit at all...hopefully that will change. By the way, you can tell the input to iSub is being seen as the right bit depth and sampling frequency, as you can see iSub's bits per second go WAY higher during high rez file streaming, and much lower on even just a 'normal' CD quality 16bit/44 FLAC file. I hope this helps put into perspective this discussion a bit better.
Subsonic 5.2.1 on 2009 Apple XServe w/ Yosemite Server 10.10.5; 96GB RAM. Lots of Music - High Rez, native DSD streaming, and otherwise.
manwithaplan
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:01 pm

Re: Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Postby theorego4 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:21 am

manwithaplan wrote: If you are simply listening through good quality headphones or through analog out via the headphone jack to RCA (i.e., leveraging the device's own DAC), then the sound is just about the best you're ever going to hear from a handheld device. If you want to go digital out to a better DAC, which is completely understandable, then it appears the file gets down-rezzed to 16bit/44kHz...this may suck, but it sucks WAY less than streaming lossy files like mp3's etc.


Agree with much of what you said but stand by the statement that "iSub is not Hi-Rez" (using the external HRTMicrostreamer DAC - unless you are defining Hi-Rez as 16bit/44.1flac?) Also, agree that iSub is likely not to blame and this may very well be a limitation of the IOS or lib-bass. That was not the intent of my statement but understand how you could have interpreted it that way. In an earlier posting, there was mention of the developer looking into the limitation of lib-bass with a possible future update but there's been no follow-up mention of this.

Frustration with iSub is mostly with the stuttering issues with Hi-Rez files, e.g., 24bit/96k, and not the sound quality. DSub/Samsung 5S have no stuttering issues whatsoever playing Hi-Rez flac files on the same identical Comcast broadband connection. It's also possible that the stuttering issues are somehow specific to my iPAD3 but hard to know.

Have confirmed that Subsonic via a Windows PC is Hi-Rez using a Focusrite DAC/recording interface. The Focusrite DAC plays flac files natively without any upsampling. The fact that DSub upsamples everything via the HRTMicrostreamer may not necessarily be a good thing. In addition, not convinced that Hi-Rez flac files played via DSub are better quality than iSub, but the flawless playing of Hi-Rez files without stuttering is a big plus.

The sound quality advantage of the HRTMicrostreamer (listen mostly via quality headphones) may be its ability to convert digital into a warm analog sound with quality tight bass & smooth mid-range/treble whether they are downsampled or not. More so than just being player of Hi-Rez files!
theorego4
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:55 pm

Re: Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Postby manwithaplan » Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:18 am

I doubt there are many people on the planet that have used iSub as much or on as many devices as I have, and I can tell you that it has no stuttering problem with high rez files or any other files...again, assuming that you have stable connectivity. The iPad3 was a fairly weak offering, but it still worked just fine for me for native streaming of files as high as 24bit/192kHz using iSub.
Subsonic 5.2.1 on 2009 Apple XServe w/ Yosemite Server 10.10.5; 96GB RAM. Lots of Music - High Rez, native DSD streaming, and otherwise.
manwithaplan
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:01 pm

Re: Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Postby vigotone » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:29 am

But iSub MUST be doing some downsampling, because iOS is capable of playing back 24/48 natively. When 24/48 files are played back natively through the Music app (whether through the lightning connector to the iDevice input on my Oppo Dac/Amp or through the lightning to USB CCK adapter to the USB input on the Oppo), they register as 24/48. But through iSub, they register as 16/44.1. So clearly, iSub us to blame, unfortunately.
vigotone
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:00 pm

Re: Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Postby vigotone » Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:02 pm

Just bumping this thread to see if anyone has any idea why iSub isn't passing 24/96 via the CCK...
vigotone
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:00 pm

Re: Is iSub Truly Lossless? Even Hi-Res???

Postby vigotone » Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:13 pm

Just a quick update: I have been in touch with Rich, the developer of AVSub, who has sent me his latest beta, and I am happy to report, the upcoming version of AVSub successfully outputs ALL resolutions to my DAC. Every single bit and sample rate I threw at it was accurately displayed on my Oppo HA-1 DAC, be it 16/44.1, 24/48, 24/88.1, 24/96, even 24/192!!!

This definitely proves that an iDevice can output hi-res via the CCK. I am beyond thrilled. Thanks to Rich for making AVSub, which will be my go-to from now on.
vigotone
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:00 pm

Previous

Return to Mods, Apps and Clients

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest