Server key revocation?

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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby GJ51 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:29 am

Looks like everyone's 'fixation' with the definition of donation will finally get resolved. Phew! The good ole days are now gone, a fixed toll has been established, and folks are already ringing the 'funeral toll'.. predictable.

Free cupcakes were great-yes. He served us great cupcakes for free, requesting a donation was typical of well-intentioned responsibility...value-for-value...if you use and enjoy it, support it. Alas, frosting came along..we could now stream to our mobiles! Brilliance! Frosting costs more money (sugar and lard aren't cheap, like flour and baking powder), and once you go cupcake with frosting, you can't go back. Despite these realities, many feel entitled to free (as in anything) software ('I'm not paying until feature xyz (sprinkles) are added!!!' ), but those that feel this way aren't living in reality. Creating and maintaining anything worthwhile indeed has value, and those enjoying the cupcakes (I indulge every day) should respond in kind. There are other bakers in town, but if they are free, you might be the product...and you may be just fine with that. I've had other cupcakes, but I prefer these.


And thus the beauty of a free marketplace where we all have choices and can vote by choosing where we are going to spend our $$$.

When I first decided to use Subsonic it represented a great value in the marketplace with functionality that I could not find anywhere else at any price. My goal was to be able to access all my entertainment media from outside my network when not at home. Subsonic was the best way to do that back then.

Today my network has evolved and newer technologies are emerging that allow me to achieve the same goals without being dependent on Subsonic. It is still a wonderful part of my setup, but no longer the compelling service that it was just a few short years ago. It's just a remarkable example of how fast tech changes. I forget what I paid for my first HP ex485 brand new but I think it was around $600 for a single core Celeron, a gig of memory and a 750GB hard drive.

Today I'm about ready to pull the trigger on ebay for a Dell C6100 4 node server that has dual quad core Xeons in each node (32 cores), 96GB ram and 12 drive bays for $800. I don't think anyone would pay me too much for my trusty old ex485 any more as it has clearly seen the bulk of its useful life. Of course, there are always the ignorant shoppers who can be taken advantage of, but I don't go there. I'll just let the old ex485 spin until it can't spin no more.

And so too, Subsonic has been a wonderful tech learning experience that has forced me to learn many new things. A great value at its time. But now that I'm bumping my internet speed to Fios Quantum 150/65 and setting up direct access over ipv6, the need for Subsonic is no longer as crucial as it once was. Like my good old ex485, I won't just abandon it, but I'm doubtful I'll be stepping up to the plate when it gets passed through the pews next time. I made another donation last week simply as a courtesy thank you for all the fun the project has been for me and my family and friends. I have no sense of remorse or guilt regarding the past terms of use as they were presented by Sindre. He's the developer and he has every right to determine what he feels his efforts are worth in the marketplace. I have abided by his terms and then some over the past few years making several voluntary donations in support of his efforts.

There is no doubt however, that the recent introduction of the last iteration of the Android app was poorly done from the standpoint of changing the terms of service without giving the user base a proper heads up. It would be a shame if the same process were to happen with the server product as I doubt that many would be very happy about it if done the same way. Not a terrible problem for me as I have already been moving to alternate solutions, but I'm sure that Subsonic has a long way to go if properly presented.

Finally, I must express some disappointment with the rate of feature integration into Subsonic. It was a bit shocking to see new modders get involved and integrate features that the community had been asking for in a matter of DAYS when they had been ignored for YEARS by Sindre.

Don't misunderstand. I'm very grateful for Subsonic and all the fun it has been, but there is certainly a lot of room for improvement. When it was the best option available, I promoted it whenever and wherever I could in an effort to support it's continued development. I'm still a fan, but there are now alternatives that are equally compelling and cost effective.

I wish Subsonic nothing but the best and continued success, but it will have to be earned on its merits as all things in a free market must in order to survive.
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby alphawave7 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:56 am

Naturally I can't disagree with anything you've said...its all true and correct. I suppose my frustration (and perhaps Sindre's..although I don't speak for him) involves the apparent failure of the value- for-value/ donation model. You began and finished the post with reference to marketplace..and I feel like that is ONLY NOW a fair statement because it WILL now indisputably be a paid model..it has finally entered the 'marketplace', apparently the consumer demanded it. Perhaps it should have happened sooner. I hoped it would have succeeded as it was..different from everything else. We had camaraderie supporting a great software project...now we"ll just pay for another 'product in the marketplace"...or not. Innocence lost, I guess. I confess to being a PlexPass member myself, and it has been a fun ride the past few months with a flurry of development..overhaul of server and new clients (Kepler rocks) but the simple elegance and reliability of SS keeps me running it concurrently and I don't see that changing anytime soon. 8-)

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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby daneren2005 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:52 pm

alphawave7 wrote:Naturally I can't disagree with anything you've said...its all true and correct. I suppose my frustration (and perhaps Sindre's..although I don't speak for him) involves the apparent failure of the value- for-value/ donation model. You began and finished the post with reference to marketplace..and I feel like that is ONLY NOW a fair statement because it WILL now indisputably be a paid model..it has finally entered the 'marketplace', apparently the consumer demanded it. Perhaps it should have happened sooner. I hoped it would have succeeded as it was..different from everything else. We had camaraderie supporting a great software project...now we"ll just pay for another 'product in the marketplace"...or not. Innocence lost, I guess. I confess to being a PlexPass member myself, and it has been a fun ride the past few months with a flurry of development..overhaul of server and new clients (Kepler rocks) but the simple elegance and reliability of SS keeps me running it concurrently and I don't see that changing anytime soon. 8-)

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It always has been a paid model. But it is moving from a one time paid model to a monthly paid model. The huge problem with that is that 99% of the appeal of something like Subsonic (at least to me, this my two cents) is that it DOESN'T have the same cost as using something like GMusic. I could pay once and have the software for my own personal use for as long or in whatever way that I wanted. This now seems to be coming to an end, which ends a huge part of the appeal. But that brings me to the by far the largest reason I chose Subsonic over everything else:

It is open source. I have seen over the course of the last 5 years or so lots of software ebb and flow. There is constant change in the market. I constantly see projects go from being free to being paid projects. I am fine with that on some levels. What I am not fine is EVER paying a monthly fee for something I have to setup and support myself. I don't even think I would have that much trouble with it if he was charging another set of donation costs. If that is what he needs to continue adding features, fine. But there has to be some compelling reason for me to want to pay a monthly fee (ie Netflix, Hulu, Spotify), and Subsonic doesn't offer that (once again, personal opinion). But this is EXACTLY why I chose an open source project. Because Sindre CAN'T do that to me. The source is all open, so if he chooses to change his project to a payment model that I don't like, I can give him the middle finger. Even if he chooses to no longer commit the source himself, I can take it and fix the things that bug me myself. And as long as he doesn't change the source to be closed in the next release I can even give him another donation for his work, but I will never be bound by a monthly subscription to a project like this.

And the problem is that I doubt I'm going to be the only one that feels this way, which will strongly decrease how much interest this project gets. Decreased interest means decreased interest in the clients. And I don't mean DSub. I mean decreased interest in making new clients for any new platforms that I might be interested in. Decreased interest in fixing the crappy ones that already exist (WP8 clients in participial). In every poll of what music service you use I have seen, Subsonic is always dead last, but at least it is on the charts. I want it to at least stay at that point. And any damage this might do will take a while to present itself obviously, but I see a slow change to a nickle and diming model by Sindre, which is kind of starting to piss people off.
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby alphawave7 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:21 pm

I see it the other-way-round: Free server..'premium' was a .org addy if you wanted, donation in any amount. It grew! Video was somehow wedged in, and mobile access is HUGE (now a requirement!). It too was added to 'premium' feature list. Ergo, some consider it now a 'paid' model, because the tasty frosting requires a donation in any amount. Like Gary, my donations are a reward for continued development and new features, which made the server and apps indispensable to me and my users. But had I been 'cheap', I'd have received those HUGE upgrades to premium frosting for my original pittance donation of 3 bucks back in the day. I don't see Sindre 'nickel and diming' so much as I see folks wanting frosting (or everything) for nothing, while Sindre gets backlash for simply trying to make the project self-supporting and worthwhile. 'But it is what it is'...the Paypal 'Buy Me A Beer' donation links prevalent in Android fora/XDA,etc. will not be self-supporting any good project on this scale. Now we know.
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby GJ51 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:32 pm

It's never a pretty sight when idealism meets reality ... :wink:
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby alphawave7 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:07 pm

GJ51 wrote:It's never a pretty sight when idealism meets reality ... :wink:


LOL! Yep...damn those pragmatists, ugly AND boring! :P
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby hakko » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:22 pm

There are definitely larger scale open source projects. curl comes to mind with a claimed 500 million users. The authors (a few guys from Stockholm/Sweden) work on it, and offer paid services for client-specific setups, bug priority, support etc. It works because they write great code, and they use the power of open source (many people studying the code and submitting patches). Or what about Firefox? It is clearly possible to run professional open source projects.

I've been adding features and security fixes for Subsonic for a year and not a single one has been picked up by Sindre. The same goes for DSub for what I know. That's a mystery to me. So many people are posting fixes and improvements and tweaks, basically doing the job for Sindre. If he used all of that work, it would allow him to release more often, fix long standing bugs, generate more interest in the project, make money. I don't understand why he doesn't.
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby alphawave7 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:13 pm

You're right hakko...the ONLY reason Plex is so far along in such short time is the division of labor among a group of devs, and a defined roadmap. Plus, they solicit and act on user input. Still, they too did not escape freeloader backlash: http://www.bjorn3d.com/2012/09/plex-freemium-world/
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby GJ51 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:58 pm

hakko wrote:There are definitely larger scale open source projects. curl comes to mind with a claimed 500 million users. The authors (a few guys from Stockholm/Sweden) work on it, and offer paid services for client-specific setups, bug priority, support etc. It works because they write great code, and they use the power of open source (many people studying the code and submitting patches). Or what about Firefox? It is clearly possible to run professional open source projects.

I've been adding features and security fixes for Subsonic for a year and not a single one has been picked up by Sindre. The same goes for DSub for what I know. That's a mystery to me. So many people are posting fixes and improvements and tweaks, basically doing the job for Sindre. If he used all of that work, it would allow him to release more often, fix long standing bugs, generate more interest in the project, make money. I don't understand why he doesn't.


I made that very suggestion to Sindre many months ago when you and Mad Evil started your mods. That was the mystery and frustration for me as you guys were cranking out features that we had been asking for yet they weren't being rolled into Subsonic. We have a few successful websites that have grown and become profitable largely by providing small stipends and occasional PayPal thank you's to anyone who consistently makes valuable contributions. Acknowledging and thanking those who contribute is a win-win for everybody. A one man show only goes so far. I encouraged Sindre to collaborate with you guys and manage the overall quality of the future releases, but the suggestion apparently fell on deaf ears. I'm pretty convinced that if he were to let Hakko manage the database, let ME roll in some of the features he's developed, and just increase the minimum for the donation required for the premium features, we'd all benefit.

Sometimes just asking some of the old users to support the project by making another donation when a major revision is released brings in more revenue. I've pretty much tried to use that as my guideline for what seems appropriate for me, but sometimes making the suggestion is all that other people need to get on board. I think there are alternatives, but if they aren't discussed it'll be hard to see progress in a way that the user base will be comfortable with.
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby daneren2005 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:06 am

alphawave7 wrote:You're right hakko...the ONLY reason Plex is so far along in such short time is the division of labor among a group of devs, and a defined roadmap. Plus, they solicit and act on user input. Still, they too did not escape freeloader backlash: http://www.bjorn3d.com/2012/09/plex-freemium-world/
S.O.S.A.D. :)

Right, because paying for something once and then being annoyed when expected to pay for it again with minimal improvements is being a freeloader :roll:

I pay for plex because it is a ecosystem that is continually improving. Subsonic on the other hand just plain out hasn't. So far, of his last two major pushes (Android app, 4.8 update), 98% of the work that has gone into them has been to add a paywall for himself, and little to nothing new for his users.
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby alphawave7 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:59 am

daneren2005 wrote:Right, because paying for something once and then being annoyed when expected to pay for it again with minimal improvements is being a freeloader :roll:


I won't jump to conclusions until his 'plan' is announced. I think going forward, a subscription would probably be best..the old way wasn't working.

I pay for plex because it is a ecosystem that is continually improving. Subsonic on the other hand just plain out hasn't. So far, of his last two major pushes (Android app, 4.8 update), 98% of the work that has gone into them has been to add a paywall for himself, and little to nothing new for his users.


Plex magically played my Panny camera's AVCHDlite vids, without ANY input from me..I didn't need to learn any transcoding strings...on a lark, I just nav'd to one of my vids and hit play, not expecting it to do anything. That was enough for me to take a closer look. Then I discovered the Android App (Kepler) can behave as a server ON Android...something I've been waiting for. It's immature, but the Plex team gives me hope, and has a new history of performance. Both projects are worth funding, imho.
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Re: Server key revocation?

Postby GJ51 » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:24 am

It looks like I'm seeing some more info on the new "Subsonic Premium" that indicates a choice of $2/month. $9/year, or $39 for lifetime.

A key question will be how legacy Subscribers are going to be treated in this new setup. I don't find that unreasonable as long as those of us who have already donated the equivalent of the lifetime subscription aren't going to be treated as new users.
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Re: Re: Server key revocation?

Postby enix » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:26 am

GJ51 wrote:...those of us who have already donated the equivalent of the lifetime subscription aren't going to be treated as new users.


I bet we will be. Just my opinion.

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